May 2011 BOM The Idiot by Fyodor Dostoyevsky

[neilgee]

I can't say a whole lot by way of introduction apart from what's already well documented: Dostoyevsky was one of Russia's most famous 19th Century writers, writing at a turbulent and oppressive time in Russia's history and walking a fine line between entertainment and censorship (Dostoyevsky did a spell as a political prisoner after the powers that be disliked something he said in his first novel Poor Folk, at least that's what I remember reading about him but I could do with checking my facts as they are very rusty regarding Dostoyevsky ). He is particularly admired for his ability to keep the narrative tension high in novels like Crime and Punishment, though whether this applies to The Idiot too I do not yet know but looking forward to finding out.

Happy reading all.

[Winifred]

My copy is on order, should be in any day now. It's long, but I've always intended to read it - be nice to have others' feedback along the way!

[margaine]

downloaded the ebook for ipod touch. :)

[neilgee]

Every copy in the libraries is out on loan, the first one due back 10th May, so I've asked for that one to be held for me, failing that I'll just have to buy it, but either way I'll definitely be reading this one.

Like Winifred says it's long but he's one of the world's classic authors isn't he and I'll try and read all of his books sooner or later.

[Winifred]

My copy has arrived! Just a little reading in front of it, then I'll dive in.

[margaine]

someone please inspire me to keep reading . . . I can't seem to get into the book at all.

[Winifred]

margaine, I'm only on p 25 (just finished Chapter 2), so don't know if I can help - but, I am very glad that I happened to read The Winter Queen by Boris Akunin before tackling The Idiot. I, therefore, love the interplay in the 2nd chapter which Dostoevsky seems to be having fun with the extremely boring and stagnant social structure (see the mention in my book blog, April 2011:http://www.literaturejunction.com/showthread.php?12396-Winifred-s-reads/page7).

He speaks of how deadly it would be if one could know exactly when one will die, that that hopeless certitude would be the ultimate torture, even worse than murder by robbers (you wouldn't know when that would happen, for sure). What is more predictable and deadly than being born into a particular class and being stuck there for life? The (potential) idiot is talking to a house servant, and he is a prince, so he has the servant off-guard, and Dostoevsky is having fun mixing the classes....We will have to see who the idiots really are, I suppose.

Hope this helps??

Maybe not? Do I hear gentle snoring sounds from all quarters?

[neilgee]

I picked up my copy yesterday after work and ploughed through the first 140 pages today (about one fifth of the book's total length) because I did find it pretty easy reading and I actually found it easier to read as i went on and I got familiar with the characters (and some of the Russian names). #

However I was warned that this book is one you either love or loathe, it seems to inspire extreme reactions and that's what attracted me to it, two authors that I respect have referenced it (James Kelman was one but I can't bring the other to mind at the moment) one saying it was a book that profoundly affected him and changed his outlook on literature but the other saying it was the worst book he'd ever read (I think he was forced to read it at school). With such contrary reactions what can you do except read it for yourself? I am sorry if I've involved Margaine in an experiment where she comes down on the side that just doesn't like the book! Maybe it was a bad BOM choice as I suppose given the reactions above chances were not all of us were going to like it!

Having said that the book has made me laugh out loud a few times, I thought the conversation between the "Prince" and the 3 sisters and their mother was a hilarious spoof on social manners, I don't know if you've got that far, although we are talking about the manners of 19th Century Russia it still works and like I say made me laugh out loud, and the views on Capital Punishment that Winifred mentions, about it being more cruel than murder because with murder there's always a hope of rescue or justice prevailing before it's too late or a chance to fight back, though I didn't make the equation with social class that Winifred makes yet I know from having done Russian Lit as part of my degree that social class was a very big deal in 19th C Russia and every Russian author at the time would have been acutely aware of it. Gogol inparticular (ref his short story The Overcoat).

Sorry don't mean to go on but Russian lit was my favourite module at Uni and has remained something of a passion for me, though whether The Idiot will live up to that passion remains to be seen in the next four fifths of the novel! Hopefully there is something in there to encourage Margaine.

# They all sound the same to me

[margaine]

I will keep trying, though I might be a bit on the late side with finishing the book. I have had very limited exposure to Russian lit, which is why I was up for reading more.

I usually love the portrayals and play with social class in british and american 19th (or early 20th) century lit that I've read. But perhaps because I know so little about this world, I'm not finding it as amusing. I get that it's there, but I feel separated from it.

But Neil, I don't know if my difficulty getting into has anything to do with this book's "love it or hate it" quality. I think it's much more me than the book itself.

[neilgee]

Margaine, it's like a shadow is hanging over my reading of this book because I feel responsible for you reading it and I do find I'm worrying whether you guys will be enjoying it as I read it. I'm not sure if I've nominated the right book, maybe Gogol would have been more enjoyable, if you want to get into more 19C Russian lit, because Dead Souls and The Government Inspector are more accepted classics, or Crime and Punishment or Lemontov's (spelling) A hero of our time.

I don't want to put you off the wonders of Russian Lit with one chancey choice because I've already read the "biggies" and you havn't :(

[margaine]

Margaine, it's like a shadow is hanging over my reading of this book because I feel responsible for you reading it and I do find I'm worrying whether you guys will be enjoying it as I read it. I'm not sure if I've nominated the right book, maybe Gogol would have been more enjoyable, if you want to get into more 19C Russian lit, because Dead Souls and The Government Inspector are more accepted classics, or Crime and Punishment or Lemontov's (spelling) A hero of our time.

I don't want to put you off the wonders of Russian Lit with one chancey choice because I've already read the "biggies" and you havn't :(

I've read C+P. Don't feel responsible, I voted for it!!

[Winifred]

Gee, neilgee, I'm with margaine, don't feel guilty! The whole point of the book club is to expose ourselves to something new, some we like, some not. I haven't been nuts about some other selections, but I'm glad I read them, I wouldn't have, on my own, and I'm always fascinated by other viewpoints. This is, after all, one of the strong points of our small but mighty forum! :)

Even with Russian heritage, I am very easily confused by Russian names..

[neilgee]

Sorry Winifred I didn't know about the Russian heritage, apparently Russian names come in 3 parts all meaning something different, but you would understand that better than I do!

I got through another 70 pages today but I also chanced a quick look at the blurb on the back cover (I don't usually do this because this sometimes gives away some of the plot, as indeed was the case here) but it was worth it in this case because the blurb compared Prince Myshkin to Jesus Christ in his innocence and naiveness.

That made so much sense because religion was another huge 19C Russian preoccupation, and the idea that someone socially innocent could change the world must have been fascinating to an author like Dostoyevsky, I could imagine him being drawn to that idea.

There's all sorts of ramifications from that idea.

I think of what I remember of the Bible from school and for some reason what springs to mind is JC entering the money-changers house and turning over the tables. A well-meaning act of innocence? It depends on who is being indulged by this action, doesn't it?

I know we're all ex-students or teachers on this thread at the moment so we're all familiar with the many ways we can view one action so the turning over of the tables is only well-meaning from a naive point of view, does that mean a naive point of view is best? Does anybody expect naiveness to change anything for the better?

I get the feeling from what I've read so far that this is what Dostoyesky was trying to explore, and it is indeed an argument you could explore endlessly.

He says very early in the novel that Myshkin doesn't realise when people are being rude or insulting to him but answers them as though he were being asked a civil question, then later (spoiler alert) he falls in love at first sight from a woman's portrait.

Are we supposed to take this as "pure" love? I'm 50 years old and I no longer have the kind of romantic idealism that believes love at first sight is workable in the real world. Maybe if it happens on both sides (which it usually doesn't and doesn't in the novel) and the love can grow mutually then okay but generally I've lost that kind of innocent romanticism, like the turning over of the tables in the bible what seems pure and right to one side is not necessarily quite so perfect to the other side.

Anyway, I've gone on for long enough.

Thankyou both of you for your encouragement.

Interesting to find that Margaine has read C&P, there is a certain similarity in styles between the two novels, don't you think, the same high tempo and lots of vociferous characters to keep the pace fast! I just think that - so far - perhaps his ideas were a little better organised in C&P, but then I know C&P was written under pressure for monthly publication so it was an amazing feat.

[neilgee]

Finished the novel and was surprised at what hard work it was, I really had to force myself through it, but for Margaine and Winifred who didn't nominate this novel I would say if you havn't enjoyed it so far then don't go any further because it doesn't get any better!

The tension in the dialogue that impressed me in C&P became almost absurd in this novel. The verbal exchanges were filled with characters who were 'almost choking' with fury or were 'shaking all over' with some emotion that didn't communicate itself in the dialogue, the physical reactions always seemed out of proportion to what was said to a point where this seemed absurd and ripe for mockery. I don't know whether this is because The Idiot is a far inferior novel to C&P or whether it's because I'm 50 years old now and I first read C&P when I was in my 20's...
I would have to say I'm on the negative side of the extreme reactions I mentioned at the start of the thread.

Sorry, you two, but if you havn't enjoyed it so far then believe me it doesn't improve with progress, I would advise you not to bother!

[Winifred]

still plugging along, here. Need a block of time, I'm having to nibble at it.

[margaine]

Sorry, you two, but if you havn't enjoyed it so far then believe me it doesn't improve with progress, I would advise you not to bother!

hmm . . . I was starting to feel like I'd gotten a bit more into the groove of it recently. perhaps I'll give it a tiny bit more time, and then take your advice if I'm still feeling frustrated about it. I really hate having to abandon books!

[neilgee]

I know, I hate to abandon books too, but sometimes when its 718 pages worth maybe we should keep that option open.

[Winifred]

Upon Googling around for some more background on The Idiot, I discovered some fellow travelers: http://aliteraryodyssey.blogspot.com/2011/04/idiot-mayjune-2011-readalong-sign-ups.html Is anyone here familiar with Literary Odyssey? I'm not and not yet sure how they operate - it seems each member has their own blog and expounds upon The Idiot there? Anyway, they are reading it for their May/June 2011 read-a-long. We may wish to join, or at least keep an eye on their progress.

[neilgee]

I wish them luck, Winifred, that's all I'll say :rolleyes::rolleyes:

[Winifred]

Actually, it's beginning to remind me of Voltaire's Candide.

[neilgee]

Candide is one of the many classics i havn't got round to reading yet, Winifred, sorry.

[Gladys]

Hello friends. I read the The Idiot a couple of years ago, and still believe it's as good as any novel I've read: so touching, so dramatic, so euphoric. But it is said to be difficult to grasp. I think a working knowledge of the New Testament helps.

A few months ago I read Candide, and the same feeling of chaos following chaos pervades The Idiot. I found Crime and Punishment rather too grim for my taste, and afterwards needed someone to help explain Svidrigailov. By contrast The Idiot is brimming with hope and, I think, a joy to read.

I still remember the sad fascination Prince Myshkin experiences as he gazes at the photo of Nastasya Filippovna on the train to St. Petersburg, the photo in possession of that gauche brute Roghozin.

[neilgee]

Thankyou for your contribution to the thread, Gladys. It's good to have an alternative view and to read something positive about the book! I'm glad you enjoyed it so much; like I said earlier in the thread it seems to be one of those books that divide readers sharply in opinion. I must admit that engaging with Prince Myshkin emotionally was a problem for me. I just didn't "get" him.

[Gladys]

I must admit that engaging with Prince Myshkin emotionally was a problem for me. I just didn't "get" him.

Without, I hope, giving too much away for those reading, the prince is a humble man whose focus is utterly on the here and now. Blind the to past prejudices and the future machinations, he acts for the best at each and every instant, and with no regrets. In this sense he resembles Jesus, and for this reason no one - least of all the cultured and sophisticated Russian - understands him. Although there were some doting school children living near his sanctuary in Switzerland, at a time before our story begins.

Prince Myshkin becomes more and more misunderstood except, perhaps, on the very last page of the novel.

I glow with warmth as I remember! :idea:

[Winifred]

I must admit, as I slowly wend my way through The Idiot, that I'm enjoying it, although I stay confused a lot as to who's talking...Love the casual philosophical asides constantly thrown in, love the conversations that maddeningly come full circle. And, in Book 3 (where I finally am), there is a translator's note that says that Dostoevsky was familiar with Candide, and admired Voltaire, so I'm sure there was a bit of inspiration there. More later, I'm still sitting for short periods only!

[Gladys]

...I stay confused a lot as to who's talking

Minor characters seem to present the most difficulty: the likes of Vera Lebedev, Evgenie Pavlovitch or Prince S.

[Winifred]

I'm still plugging away at this novel, and must admit, I'm getting tired of it. Hopefully, the end will pull the wandering narrative together somehow. I'm tired of self-absorbed, ill ruminations, mind games and the assumption that most women are illogical and hysterical.

Of course, it's been a long day at work.

[neilgee]

I read an excellent biography of Iris Murdoch recently and was surprised to learn that she reread The Idiot annually, she particularly loved the scene where everyone has to tell a bad thing about themselves but nobody does, they all evade the issue with some pomposity...More evidence that this is a book you either love or hate. I notice that nobody on this thread is undecided in their opinion.

[Gladys]

I'm still plugging away at this novel, and must admit, I'm getting tired of it... I'm tired of self-absorbed, ill ruminations, mind games and the assumption that most women are illogical and hysterical.

Are you still reading, Winifred? While most of the women may be illogical and hysterical, I hardly think Dostoevsky is particularly flattering to the men.