The Pledge of Allegiance (US)

[Jezebel]

What do you guys think of the Pledge of Allegiance? Do you think it should be said in schools? If not, is it because of the idea of "pledging" to the flag or is it because of the mention of god? Should they remove the word "god"? It is interesting to note that the word "god" was not included in the pledge until the 1950s.

[Maduro_Scotty]

To me, it should be changed to it's original wording. The interesting thing is that the pledge of allegiance was written by a self-confessed socialist minister. He even stopped attending church after the sect he was associated with refused to make a public stand in regards to slavery. The only reason "Under God" was included was to differentiate us from the Soviet Union. Obviously, there isn't a need for such differentiation any more and we should go back to a "strict constructionist" approach and use Francis Bellamy's words before they were smudged in the McCarthy era hysteria of the Eisenhower years when the only intent behind the changed wording was political. Agnostics and atheists should be able to pledge allegiance to their country without giving allegiance to god as well.

[musi]

do you have the words of the Pledge? i have never heard it, though i know it exists.. is it the same as the words in National Anthem (if, of course, you have any words in the anthem..)?

[oceanflower]

do you have the words of the Pledge? i have never heard it, though i know it exists.. is it the same as the words in National Anthem (if, of course, you have any words in the anthem..)?

The Pledge of Allegiance (not the same as the National Anthem, which does, indeed, have words)

"I pledge allegiance to the flag of the United States of America, and to the Republic, for which it stands, one nation, under God, indivisible, with liberty and justice for all."

[Jezebel]

And here are the past versions

Versions of the Pledge: (changes between versions are bolded)

* 1892 to 1923:
"I pledge allegiance to my Flag and the Republic for which it stands: one Nation indivisible, with Liberty and Justice for all."

* 1923 to 1954:
"I pledge allegiance to the Flag of the United States of America, and to the Republic for which it stands: one Nation indivisible, with Liberty and Justice for all."

* 1954 to Present:
"I pledge allegiance to the Flag of the United States of America, and to the Republic for which it stands: one Nation under God, indivisible, with Liberty and Justice for all."

[mazarane]

Thanks to those who posted the wordings, I wanted to comment yesterday but didn't have time to look them up.


Agnostics and atheists should be able to pledge allegiance to their country without giving allegiance to god as well.

I agree. But to me the a pledge of allegiance comes rather to close to 'my country, right or wrong'.

I suppose the counter is that it is loyalty to the country rather than the government, which I can see to some extent, but there is still a (slight) feel of nationalism I'm not keen on.

[incka]

I would refuse to pledge allegiance to any country. Patriotism is a way of dividing the people and is used to keep class action down and in times of crises results in fascism.

[oceanflower]

The pledge is an expression of loyalty to and pride in one's country. It's not a pledge to its current government which changes regularly. I am very proud to be an American, and I recite the pledge with pride.

[SesquipedalianCaufield]

If you go to a government (public technically but ehh) funded school or any institution, then sure, go ahead and say the Pledge of Allegiance. If someone gives me money and asks in return that I pledge allegiance to them, thats basically a contract (a social contract- boo ya). Otherwise read some Civil Disobedience or find a school that is based/funded/founded on/in your beliefs. Otherwise, destroy the government, destroy the systems, destroy the allegiance.

[Maduro_Scotty]

The pledge is an expression of loyalty to and pride in one's country. It's not a pledge to its current government which changes regularly. I am very proud to be an American, and I recite the pledge with pride.

I agree entirely. I'm not thrilled with Bush, I'm dedicated to our republican form of government and what it represents. I don't say "Under God" like others do, but the rest is a o.k. in my book.

[Jezebel]

This brings up the interesting question of whether or not nationalism is a good thing. The pledge encourages nationalism. Will nationalism help a society thrive or will it ruin the chances of world peace and acceptance of others? Basically I'm asking if OceanFlower's pride in her country threatens Inka's ideas of "beyond borders". What do all of you think?

[musi]

the pledge was changed to differentiate USA from non-God-believing Soviet Union? mm.. seems there are insane things people did at tht time.. what if the one who says it is an atheist? it is like going to court to testify and swear on the Bible, when you do not believe in it.. not that my opinion counts, but i would remove the word God - you swear to be loyal to your country, which you live in.

on the other hand, nationalism is not good. pride for one's country and nationalism are not one and the same, i think. one can be proud to live in a country and be its citizen, but that shouldn't stop people from welcoming other nationalities into their country, thinking, that only they are the true residents and no one else should be here. a society should probably find a balance for this occasion - a nation should not be too nationalistic and stop anyone, trying to blend in, however, should never forget its own pride and melt in other nationalities..

[incka]

The soviet union did start by trying to stop all religion, but then in world war 2 they stopped to get the church on side in fighting the Nazis. The US is supposed to have seperated church as state. It's not a good way to seperate the two superpowers. Perhaps they should have had 'under private capital' in US and 'under state capital' in CCCP :P

Nationalism often leads people to do things they wouldn't normally do. See the Milgram Experiments for how far people will go even if they have a small allegiance to anything. This can lead people to support the most unjust imperialist wars, can lead to fascism in times of crises, can lead to racism (yes, the US is a nation of immigrants, but powerful people when needing to stop immigration can easily 'forget' this).

[Jezebel]

I'm familiar with the obedience experiment, and I can see how that somewhat relates to this...but not really. It really wasn't allegiance, it was obedience to authority...which I can see relating to this but not without some twisting. Nationalism doesn't necessarily mean obedience. How do people do things they wouldn't normally do as a result of nationalism? Were there other Milgram experiments you're referring to?

[blp]

Nationalism turns up all over the world in very different forms and with very different meanings. America's nationalism seems to result from its relative youth as a nation, its need early on to define itself as different from the UK and Europe and to pull together a potentially uncohesive group of different immigrant populations in a very large land mass. To an American abroad like me, it looks much more embedded than it is anywhere in Europe. The phrase 'proud to be British' is one a lot of us treat with extreme caution here, where it's usually uttered by racists. 'The British way of life' barely exists as a phrase or concept and, to the extent that it does, it's not freighted with much pride or obvious meaning and 'UnBritish' is not in general usage at all, certainly not as an accepted term of nonapprobation. There is also no pledge of allegiance to the country or flag that I know of.

Having been through both American and English schools, I have to say a lot of America's institutionally ratified nationalism looks like brainwashing to me. I can remember singing nationalistic songs at school when I was only 3 in the US. The message, from a very early age, is that America is simply the best country in the world. This is quite simply undemocratic. Democracies don't run on blind 'allegiance'. They run on debate, negotiation and, horror of horrors, criticism. Those who say that the pledge has nothing to do with which government is in power ignore the way the spectre of 'unAmericanism' is used by different governments to bludgeon their agendas through. As to this:


If you go to a government (public technically but ehh) funded school or any institution, then sure, go ahead and say the Pledge of Allegiance. If someone gives me money and asks in return that I pledge allegiance to them, thats basically a contract (a social contract- boo ya). Otherwise read some Civil Disobedience or find a school that is based/funded/founded on/in your beliefs. Otherwise, destroy the government, destroy the systems, destroy the allegiance.
Sorry, SC, you've got this arse-backwards. The money is not coming from the government, but going to it in the form of tax. Tax is paid in order to allow the government to run public services for the public who own them. The government is elected by the people as their representative. The allegiance should be from the government to them, not the other way around.

[oceanflower]

I see nothing wrong with thinking that my country is the best country for me. I, for one, would not wish to live in any other. It is right for me. Americans are not brainwashed into feelings of nationalism. One need only read the daily American newspapers to see that. We have an amazing degree of freedom of speech which is exercised regularly by those in favor as well as against the government. No, nationalism as expressed in the Pledge of Allegiance is the love of one's home, just as I love to come home to my house when I've been away. I love my house and would never trade it for another. I love my country (not necessarily the existing governmet) and would not trade it for another.

[Jezebel]

Well, there is a degree of "brainwashing" simply because we as Americans are all raised with the belief that certain rights are good, necessary, and wanted. We value freedom of speech, yet if we were raised in a country that did not value that we probably wouldn't value it as well. We love America and feel it is the best country for us because we have been raised to love and value American values and beliefs.

[blp]

I'm quite sure that at 3 I wasn't ready to decide what was the best country in the world for me, but I was still being asked to participate in various nationalistic rituals. By 5 I can remember believing that America was the best country in the world. Among other things, I believed it to be the freest and most socially egalitarian - which is, of course, absolute nonsense.

[Maduro_Scotty]

the pledge was changed to differentiate USA from non-God-believing Soviet Union? mm.. seems there are insane things people did at tht time.. what if the one who says it is an atheist? it is like going to court to testify and swear on the Bible, when you do not believe in it.. not that my opinion counts, but i would remove the word God - you swear to be loyal to your country, which you live in.

People of other religions may swear on their respective holy text. As for atheists, they just state that they do promise to tell the truth and the answer is entered into the court record.


on the other hand, nationalism is not good. pride for one's country and nationalism are not one and the same, i think. one can be proud to live in a country and be its citizen, but that shouldn't stop people from welcoming other nationalities into their country, thinking, that only they are the true residents and no one else should be here.

Well, you are correct in that nationalism was a key ingredient in starting WWI. At the same time, nations would not exist with out it. On top of that, I doubt you can get people to adopt a more *continental* attitude. The idea of a one world government is the stuff of conspiracy theories. At the same time, people like to think locally.



a nation should not be too nationalistic and stop anyone, trying to blend in,

Immigration is only a side-matter. If you are referring to the reent hubbub in the states, that is quite the opposite issue here.

[oceanflower]

Just a note for non-Americans: No one is required to recite the Pledge in school or anywhere else if they don't want to. One is also free to refrain form using the words "under God." In the USA we are free to turn our backs to the American flag during the National Anthem. We are not forced to practice any form of patriotism, and in fact are free to be completely unpatriotic. We are free to express ourselves in regards to love of our country or disdain of our country. These are some of the freedoms which make me love my country, and why I proudly pledge allegience to her.

[blp]

Just a note for non-Americans: No one is required to recite the Pledge in school or anywhere else if they don't want to. One is also free to refrain form using the words "under God." In the USA we are free to turn our backs to the American flag during the National Anthem. We are not forced to practice any form of patriotism, and in fact are free to be completely unpatriotic. We are free to express ourselves in regards to love of our country or disdain of our country. These are some of the freedoms which make me love my country, and why I proudly pledge allegience to her.

You may be free not to take the pledge of allegiance in school, but the fact that it happens at all creates a nationalistic atmosphere, the propagandistic emotional pull of which I find objectionable.

I haven't got a copy any more so can't offer a direct quote, but you might like to look at what Kurt Vonnegut has to say about national flag dipping at the beginning of Breakfast of Champions - something about it being an honourable tradition recognised by countries the world over as a way of showing respect for people from other nations, but banned in the case of the stars and stripes. Also remember the absurd furore over an NEA funded art installation in which visitors walked over the flag.

[Winifred]

I'm with Oceanflower on this one. Perhaps because Mom was raised in Stalinist Russia, I was brought up with the refrain, "You don't know how lucky you are (add strong Russian accent as you read)." Double whammy, home and school.

However, being the independent thinker I am, I still have no trouble with the Pledge of Allegiance (would prefer the pre-1950's text, however) or claiming to be a patriotic American. I think blp's point about holding a vastly disparate immigrant population across one of the largest countries in the world together is still a valid one, and would suggest that the Pledge of Allegiance's cement is superior to the military heavyhandedness that holds disparate populations in check elsewhere in the world.

I see that any pledge of allegiance has the potential to set up a "us against them" mentality. However, that seems to be built into the human race, starting with family units, and is something enlightened people can see beyond. Just because I espouse America as my home country doesn't mean I don't espouse the world, the human race, and beyond if visitors from Alpha Centauri drop in. I am more than a part of one family, county, state, country, world, and so are all of you.

I am still proud to be an American citizen, where I can go anywhere on the Internet, and watch what movies and read what books I can find, and criticize whom I will, and not worry about going to jail for refusing to wear particular clothing and so forth. Does that mean I condone everything my country does? No, absolutely not. So, we all work on our source country's weaknesses, and communicate to make the world better, one small thing at a time. Being proud of your country need not be a blinder, it can be a springboard.

Is this blind patriotism? I hope not. I advocate distinct minority positions in my neck of the woods, but I value the freedom to do so.

I am stepping down from the soapbox.