Read please.........ty

[mattlad22]

:) For the people that say why do i make such a big fuss about non-beleivers:
Because being a non beleiver can cost eternity.(heaven)
Being a non beleiver means u are a sinner who either doesn't realize thier a sinner, our just dont care.
That my friend equals no peace.. sin=no peace.. beleiving = sinner who realizes they are wrong and will do anything they can do to make sure they dont sin= peace
Beleivers sin.. we are not perfect.. if we were there would be no god.. no word of god. no beleivers and non beleivers.. no hell.. i say there would be heaven because we would be living on it if we were all perfect.

So basically id like to hear what people think...add anything you think i missed out and for the most part i would like people to let me know what they think about:

Why do people make such a fuss about beleiving, is what i would like to get an opinion from everyone that reads this about

Thank you "God bless you all"

[Ygraine]

For a start, the definition of a sin is different for different people. Many things which are classed as "sin" in the Bible I wouldn't consider to be wrong.

For me, I don't feel the need to believe. You might argue that perhaps you shouldn't believe out of need, but that's just my opinion and not intended in any way to attack. I don't need a god or goddess to fill any empty space in my life: I don't need anyone to talk to besides my friends and family, nor could I receive more love from them than I already do; I don't need the idea of a divine entity to explain anything; I don't need anyone to forgive me for my "sins" besides myself and the people involved in order to feel exonerated. My life is complete without a god, so why should I believe?

[Star_Anise]

To say that non-believers are sinners is to assume that you need to be part of organised religion in order to be a decent human being. This is not true. Being a "non-believer" as you term it, means for me, putting any faith that others would place in a god, etc, back in people, taking responsibility for ourselves, rather than feeling the need for an outside source of spirituality.

As Ygraine states, sin is a slippery term, and really doesn't get us anywhere.

[incka]

Sin is a matter of perseption. As a atheist I am a sinner to you, as a theist you are a sinner to me, yet no all theists thing atheists are sinners and not all atheists things theists are sinners.

As for your vague use of Pascals wager, let me say the following:
- Even if there is a God, it might not be the God of your religion, and might punish people who isn't of the correct religion. There are probably millions
- Even if there is a God, it might not Punish scepticism.
- Even if there is a God, it might Punish people who do no question it.
- Even if there is a God, it might not punish.
- Even if there is a God, it might punish everyone.

Before using Pascal's wager please go to http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pascals_wager and read why it won't back up your argument very well.

I don't belive in Gods as I find the evidence against them to be far more logical and strong than evidence against them, infact I think that the Christian God would be impossible and the chances of it existing are exactly 0.

Here are some arguements that I can use to counter your points: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Arguments_against_the_existence_of_God

I can counter anything in the bible, so if you want to try to explain something with 'because it says so in the bible' I can counter that easily, especially since the bible was written in Rome a few hundreds years after you believe your god walked the earth as a man...

POST NOW COMPLETE - MESSAGE HERE AS I HAD TO SWITCH COMPUTERS, THATS WHY IT SAYS I EDITED.

[Freaky Ed]

You have greatly insulted my belifs mattlad22! Why do belive in a corrupt religion? Many people throughout history have used the supposed words of god to wage wars and burn people at the stake. Anyway, with the bible being edited on so many occasions throughout history, nobody knows what the words of god are, and I think it disgusting of you to insult me on such grounds! Is that really the Christian way to go about? There are many other religions, so why are you so confident that yours is the "one true" religion? When we die, doesn't it seem more plausable that we experience what we did when we were not yet born? I belive it is you who are the sinner for attempting to manipulate our own belifs to suit you! Religion is the opium of the people and you're high on it! Wake up!

[mattlad22]

My, my.. so many angry people who dont understand the fact that christians beleive everyone is a sinner except god EVEN FELLOW CHRISTIANS to not beleive u are a sinner is your own account, i cant change that but for u people who claim to know everything about the bible then u should know that god is the one that comes to u through jesus christ if u open your heart and accept him. its a personal choice, i know that however if you know anything about the bible and the way christians perseive it then u would know that we are asked and feel that we should at least get the word of god out.. i dont expect any of you to change your minds but i ask u read the words as i read your words.. i dont get angry that u think what u think i get sad. again if u know anything about beleiving in god then you would actually beleive me about me getting sad about it not mad.
For the people who say their was a world where everybody was a beleiver then you need to teach yourself better on the bible and the religion because no their has never been complete beleiving in jesus christ or god..never.
Adolf hitler thought he was a christian... wa he?? not a chance.
Alot of people beleive thier faithfull in god.. but thier not.. they may beleive thiers a god but they dont beleive that thier was a son.. or dont beleive the son was sacrificed for peoples sins and resurected 3 days later and lifted to heaven.

Did u know a recent survey in america showed that something like 80% of people thought they were going to heaven when they died.. even protitutes that were still working and people who said they didnt beleive in christ but would still go to heaven.

And for the people who argue about the bible being just one of many religions and that all could be right u need to learn about other religions and how they state nothing about what has happened in the world or other religions like the bible has.. read the story of babylon, it clearly states why thiers so many religions and why thiers nothing done about them.. even states why thiers so many different languages.

But like i always say and u all seem to think im the devil or something.. u beleive what u do and only u can change it.. and i beleive what beleive and yes i will continue writing things about my religion because that what my religion asks of me.. to simply notify people the word of god.

"god bless u all"

[mazarane]

Hmmmm...I would have said that nearly all the posts above are not angry...

But religion does tend to imply judgement of others, which can make people defensive.
The label "sinners" is perhaps not the best way of putting it- yes we all do things that are 'wrong', but does it define us? I hope not...

I don't really see that this sentence cannot apply to non-believers as well:

"beleiving = sinner who realizes they are wrong and will do anything they can do to make sure they dont sin= peace"

I'd imagine it would vary from person, just like most things.....I doubt any believers actually achieve that, and I'm not sure that on average they would come any closer than non-believers.

[incka]

First of all, can you PLEASE use 'you' instead of 'u'... It would make reading what you say a hell of a lot easier...

Hitler was a christian, he might have been a different kind to you, or even a far lesser of a literal believer, but he definatly was a christian.

It doesn't surprise me that 80% of america believes in heaven. Why? Because about 90% of america has a religion, mostly Christianity and then Judaism, both of which seem to believe in heaven. But then go to India and I bet about the same amount of people believe in reincarnation. Just because a large amount of the population of your country believes something doesn't make it true.

[Freaky Ed]

It's not the bible that makes me angry, that's got some good principles in it. It's people like mattlad that take it too far. Who cares where you go when you die? It would get a bit boring spending an eternity in heaven, or even hell if you belive in that rubish. I mean come on, if god was such a loving character, would he have created hell? I just say; live life to the full and don't try to convert others if they are happy with their current belifs!

[mazarane]

If this is someones belief then I'm inclined to honour them for trying to spread their religion:
"Because being a non beleiver can cost eternity.(heaven)"
In any case this forum is for everyone to (civilly! :) ) exchange their views, whether religious, atheistic, or anything in between..

[mattlad22]

i just want to state for the people that dont understand the fact that since i am such a strong beleiver in the word of god that yes you can say it is my duty as my religion to insight people with the words of god.
Like i have said before i do not say what i say to make u a christian.. it is not possible.. only the person themself can accept jesus as thier savior and offer faith to god.

Inks sorry bout the "u" "you" thing.. i tend to have a bad habit of using sort forms that confuse people.heh

What i beleive and what the bible declares as a christian clearly states that hitler could not have been a christian.. he may have said he was a christian as do many people that are not..
To say your a christian is quite simple..but to be a christian means u have to accept in your heart that jesus christ, gods only begotten son, sacrificed his life in the flesh for all of mans sin..thus they call him the "savior", and to faithfully abid by gods will and comandments in the bible.. to live with full faith in the lord.

Just to say id like to share with you something about what they call that "rapture"...why?.. because it helps explain the difference between the people who think they are christians and the people that are true christians:
For bible references if u wish to check it out is 1. Thessalonians (4:13-17)
Basically it just states that the dead and the living in christ shall one day rise to meet the lord in the air and the people that are not rue to faith in the lord will be left.
There is also another place in the bible that speaks of the "rapture." it states how it would seem to occur.. if u wish to check this out then go to Revelation(4:1-2)

Well thank you for your past replies look forward to the fture ones and "god bless u all"

[oceanflower]

If this is someones belief then I'm inclined to honour them for trying to spread their religion:
"Because being a non beleiver can cost eternity.(heaven)"
In any case this forum is for everyone to (civilly! :) ) exchange their views, whether religious, atheistic, or anything in between..

Well said, Pete. This isn't the first discussion wherein one person or another has had strongly held beliefs that others didn't agree with. Just because this one regards religion and not politics doesn't make it any less worthy of civility.

[oceanflower]

Hitler was a christian, he might have been a different kind to you, or even a far lesser of a literal believer, but he definatly was a christian.
.

No, he was not a Christian. He may have called himself a Christian, but by definition he was not. A Christian is a person who espouses the teachings and qualities of Christ, such as love, kindness and humility. No matter what Hitler may have called himself, he did not follow the teachings of Christ, and therefore he was not Christian.

[follow_me_around]

ROTFLMAO...

Man...you're funny...

Cheers




:) For the people that say why do i make such a big fuss about non-beleivers:
Because being a non beleiver can cost eternity.(heaven)
Being a non beleiver means u are a sinner who either doesn't realize thier a sinner, our just dont care.
That my friend equals no peace.. sin=no peace.. beleiving = sinner who realizes they are wrong and will do anything they can do to make sure they dont sin= peace
Beleivers sin.. we are not perfect.. if we were there would be no god.. no word of god. no beleivers and non beleivers.. no hell.. i say there would be heaven because we would be living on it if we were all perfect.

So basically id like to hear what people think...add anything you think i missed out and for the most part i would like people to let me know what they think about:

Why do people make such a fuss about beleiving, is what i would like to get an opinion from everyone that reads this about

Thank you "God bless you all"

[oceanflower]

ROTFLMAO...

Man...you're funny...

Cheers

C'mom, Flow. Be nice.

[incka]

No, he was not a Christian. He may have called himself a Christian, but by definition he was not. A Christian is a person who espouses the teachings and qualities of Christ, such as love, kindness and humility. No matter what Hitler may have called himself, he did not follow the teachings of Christ, and therefore he was not Christian.

That might be the churches definition of a Christian but it's not my definition.

[fiveyearwinter]

Can of Worms style.

Definitely not touching this one.

[Io.]

Mattlad22- How would you benefit from converting me to a 'believer'?

You say it's your 'duty,' try using reason.

Io.

[Drjackl]

Did you know at one point in time Christens were persecuted widely? Not because they believed in a single god, not because they believed in heaven or hell? They where persecuted for telling everyone that didn't believe what they believed they were going to hell.

Did you know it wasn't un till the fall of Rome when the leaders of the era needed a way to unite their kingdoms to win wars, that they adopted a religion with one god and a written law so people couldn't see things differently forcing them under one rule, that Christianity started to grow.

Did you know that in the name of the Christian God countless amounts of people have died because they were not believers of the Christian God, countless more lost their will to live when they were assimilated by the Christian God?

Did you know that what is right and wrong according to the Christian God is different for every branch of Christianity you are in?

Did you know that what is right and wrong according to the Christian God changes from one time era to another?

Did you know what is right and wrong according to the Christian God is said by man, and thus is what is right and wrong according to man?

Over a thousand years ago the Christian God said if you don't believe in me we will torture you un till you do, and if you don't we will kill you.

Two hundred years ago the Christian God said its okay to have black slaves.

Today the Christian God says slaves is wrong, and killing people is wrong. Did the Christian God change his mind? Or have the men who are saying what the Christian God said changed?

I share all that to make a point, and that point is:
To say something is a sin according the ANY God is insulting. You should say what is a sin from your heart, not the pages of a book.

[mattlad22]

i just wanna say that how unfortunatley u are right about so many different christian views.. we are our own worse enemies when we dont follow the words of the bible as they are written.. why?.. well because most people that get heard of about thier preaching are considered extremely popular christians.. and since it is like that and they have such media and television coverage thier words are taken for everyones words.. and how sad it is.. they argue with each other over everything.. its like they forget about following the words as simple as they have been written.

For the comment about how god had been changing since the beggining i cant argue with that.. its written.. however ill tell u that when i was old enough and wise enought to understand the bible (i was a strong non-beleiver 2 at one point) i was furious and could not understand how he could be so cruel to people.. but i dont exactly know how to explain it but as i read and understood between the lines of the bible more i began to just simply understand and agree with how it was.. lol i thought he was a big bully at one point.... but obviously i had a change of heart and i cant explain it really.. just happened.. i just accepted it through jesus christ.... wish i could explain it so people could understand how i felt but all i can really say about it is that it was like alot of weight off my shoulders and a shower of peace and joy and love rushed over me.. im a 22 year old man and i cried like a baby when this happened (21 at the time.. was also 21 when i began to read the bible).

Well i wish i could be more help but i cant be at the moment.

"god bless u all"

[Ygraine]

I remember a book once saying that you couldn't understand the concept of salvation until you believed that Hitler went to heaven. Not my opinion, but an interesting one nonetheless.

Personally if that's how it works and people like that "get in" while perfectly good, kind people who lived good lives but neglected to believe in god are sent to "hell" then I certainly don't want to be a part of it

[mattlad22]

lol i can only assume that hitler propably didnt go to heaven according to the fact that he was pretty much the exact opposite of doing gods wants.
However.. i could not be sure because what if hitler accepted in his heart the father and the son.. now if he did open his heart and put his faith in jesus christ as the savior before he hit the dust.. repented for his sins.. he may have gone to heaven.
Only people that are thier would know.. besides if he did then that means he was born again and basically hitler isnt what hitler in the flesh was.