Law and Religion

[fungusSHROOM]

Do you think that religious rules affected the dreation of laws (modern and ancient and everything in between) or do you think religious rules were affected by the creation of laws?

[oceanflower]

I think that historically laws were influenced by religion.

[fungusSHROOM]

would law be the same without religion? and would religion be the same without law?...

[mazarane]

I'd estimate yes to both the first two- I believe there were laws before religion (certainly the major organised religions of today), and religion has certainly influenced lawmaking.

Therefore law would not be the same without religion.

Would religion be the same without law? Well, it was a decision by the civil governor of San Francisco which enabled homosexual couples to get married, wasn't it?

[Sisyphis]

Law historically acted as a consolidation upon religion or tyranny, and eventually overtook it.

Would the legal system be the same without religion... Well the judiciary might start to think that the notion of finding laws out of the ether - natural laws, is a bit of a fairytale, and therefore that the origin of certain long standing laws was an act of creation. They may feel a little freer to invent according to logic and intuition, where needed, insteading of being just a little strange.

[mattlad22]

I think religion came before laws and then laws overtook religion.
Unfortunatly i think human law is a curse to religious law.
Like a stumbling block for religion unfortunatly.
An example i'll show:

Law allows gays to marry
Bible law would never allow it.. its a sin

Law allows one to be killed for killing another human
Bible does not allow a human to kill another human.. its a sin.. however the bible states god himself is the only judge of the acts not humans.. are we our own gods?

There alot of things i could show examples with however my main thought is that religion was there and then someone introduced human law and it overtook religion law due to the fact their were more people not following the word of god then thier were people that were.

[incka]

I think religion came before laws and then laws overtook religion.
Unfortunatly i think human law is a curse to religious law.
Like a stumbling block for religion unfortunatly.
An example i'll show:

Law allows gays to marry
Bible law would never allow it.. its a sin

Law allows one to be killed for killing another human
Bible does not allow a human to kill another human.. its a sin.. however the bible states god himself is the only judge of the acts not humans.. are we our own gods?

There alot of things i could show examples with however my main thought is that religion was there and then someone introduced human law and it overtook religion law due to the fact their were more people not following the word of god then thier were people that were.

Yes, you are free to discussion and stating your views, but can you please say 'I believe it is a sin' if you are going to saying something like you did in the second paragraph on your post as we have at least one member (who is a moderator) on this forum that you are insulting if you say it IS a sin without saying that what you say is just your personal belief. This is your first warning, a verbal warning as it is not in a PM, if you do this again I will give you a written warning (PM) and if you continue to do so I will start a debate about what should be done in the moderator forum, and it is likely that if you continue to do this after a second warning that you will be banned. So please stop and think, and remember to state that it your personal opinion before insulting groups of people that may be on this forum, I don't want to damn you, I enjoy debating with people with views quite different to my own.

Now onto topic:

And interesting thing about the death penatly is it is practised more in heavily religious countries than more secular countries. In Europe where religion is a lot lower than most other places, and is on the decline, there are far less countries with the death penalty than in the middle east (or the usa) where most of the countries (or for USA states) have the death penatly. And Islam belives the sames as Christianity about God/Allah being the only judger...


As for original topic, I agree with mattlad that religion (of the non-organised sort) probably came before laws, although I don't think much time difference would have been there...

I think laws and religion influence eachother, for instance in the UK blasphamy (sp?) is against the law, and obvious influence from religion, but religionus institiutions have to change their values because of equal rights laws, etc. So both effect both.

[mazarane]

Interesting points incka...

The thing against the death penalty does seem to hold true as far as I can think (obviously other factors also influence it), and is genuinely puzzling. I'd be intrigued to hear the thoughts of our more religious members here....

To clarify further, only blasphemy against Christianity is illegal in the UK, and while the law still exists, I believe it has lain unused for many many years. However, it is illegal for a Catholic to ascend to the throne- I think other groups are also banned, but can't remember which.

[mattlad22]

inks i dont mean to state it to offend people man.. ge that outa yer head.
what i meant by it was exactly what was meant from the bible.. it states that being gay is not justifyable by god.. he doesnt like it.. He created man and woman not man and man or woman and woman for a reason.. if god wanted it like that then he could hav made it man and man and still been able to make people have children.. after all he is god he can do whatever he wants (my beleif) according to the bible.

[incka]

Well your bible doesn't seem to be void of homosexuality...


David says to Jonathan: "very pleasant has thou been unto me: thy love to me was wonderful, passing the love of woman." 1:26 (http://www.skepticsannotatedbible.com/2sam/1.html#26)


"The soul of Jonathan was knit with the soul of David, and Jonathan loved him as his own soul ... And Jonathan stripped himself of the robe that was upon him, and gave it to David, and his garments ... and his girdle." 18:1-4 (http://www.skepticsannotatedbible.com/1sam/18.html#1)

For instance...


The bible also has many contradictions, so you should not take every word for it literally, even most christians do not take every word of it literally as the word of their god. The homophobia in it was probably made by the romans who edited and/or wrote it.

[mattlad22]

Ya the discussion in the bible about homosexuality being not with gods will is in romans.
Im sure there may be more points in the bible besides romans but i do not have the bible memorized and i dont have enough time on the computer to look them out while im on here.

I'd just like to state that im not homophobic even though im a christian and its against my beleifs..however i do know its wrong in the eyes of god and that i wish they would not give to thier lust.
Two of the most intellectually stimulating people i have ever met in person was a gay couple.. im not saying gays are dumb or gays are stupid or they should kill themselves or anything like that.. all im saying is according t god its wrong.

As for the quotes on david and jonathan... u can put that to any true christian because christians are to love evryone......everyone. Back in the day it was appropriate to kiss one another on the lips as a greeting.. male or female.
As for the robe stripping ect... the way i interpret it is that he was honouring david and showing his love to david by giving him the clothes from his back.

"god bless u all"

[Io.]

Religion and law do not mix. American neo-Conservatism is threatening to abolish the right to abortion, mark my words, this is for the good of the 'collective' majority but not the fundamental and inviolable right of the individual to their own life. In trespassing or resurfacing into the realm of politics the Christian right is exacting power over liberty. Religion is merely a set of ethical guidelines, but in an age of secularism, despite the influence of Christianity even in America, law should be representative of what is best for the individual.

Io.

[oceanflower]

I'm glad that religion and law mixed to make murder a crime.

[Io.]

Oceanflower- Forgive me but that offhand comment was rather naive- do you suppose religion is the only ethical code? Do you not realise that the beginnings of Western law was born out of paganism, that is to say the Greek civilisation and Roman Empire? It did not take the tablets of an old man to formally recognise and condone murder.

Io.

[oceanflower]

Oceanflower- Forgive me but that offhand comment was rather naive- do you suppose religion is the only ethical code? Do you not realise that the beginnings of Western law was born out of paganism, that is to say the Greek civilisation and Roman Empire? It did not take the tablets of an old man to formally recognise and condone murder.

Io.

That was no naive, offhand comment. In my country (USA) our laws are based on the Judeo-Christain ethic. In our case, therefore, the religious law against murder became one of the laws of the land.

[Io.]

oceanflower- The American Constitution (your country ;) )was not founded upon Judeo-Christian ethics but the principles set forth by European and, particularly British philosophers who were beginning to form the ideas of liberalism.

http://www.civiced.org/political.html

Io.

[oceanflower]

oceanflower- The American Constitution (your country ;) )was not founded upon Judeo-Christian ethics but the principles set forth by European and, particularly British philosophers who were beginning to form the ideas of liberalism.

http://www.civiced.org/political.html

Io.

I have no doubt that the f-r-a-m-e-r-s (I have to insert the dashes or that word gets censored) of the Constitution were influenced by a variety of philosophies. You must remember, however, that the ealry Pilgrim settlers came to America to escape religious persecution in England. This country was begun by Christian people, and founded upon their Judeo-Christian beliefs. These beliefs cannot be dismissed when discussing the philosophies included in the framing of the Constitution. I was not, however, referring to the document of the Constitution in my earlier post. There is no law against murder in the Constitution. What you must understand is that in the USA there are federal and state laws. The federal governent government does not make all laws for the individual states. (although all laws must be in keeping with Constitutional guidlines, and states must folow federal laws). The states have autonomy in making laws suitable for the people of that state. For instance, my state of Maryland was founded as a refuge for Roman Catholics whose religious practices were not being accepted by the Protestant majority. In Maryland, therefore, state laws were most definitely influenced by Judeo-Christian belief, as were federal laws at the time.