June 2010 Book Discussion: The Reader

[margaine]

Well, I've started this thread a few days early. But since we all still have to get a hold of the book and such . . .

Discuss The Reader, by Bernhard Schlink here.

And we again have the option of watching the movie and adding that to our discussion, for those who want to. I haven't seen the movie, but I've heard it's really good.

[KneD]

Hmmmm. Translations...

The book is originally called Der Vorleser. which is not just someone who reads (like The reader suggests), but someone who reads something to someone else. Out loud that is.
So I'll be on the look-out for a Dutch translation. De Voorlezer. Don't expect any quotes from my part :)

[margaine]

Hmmmm. Translations...

The book is originally called Der Vorleser. which is not just someone who reads (like The reader suggests), but someone who reads something to someone else. Out loud that is.
So I'll be on the look-out for a Dutch translation. De Voorlezer. Don't expect any quotes from my part :)

Wow, thanks for that information KneD - I never would have known! Given what I know about the book and movie, the untranslated title sounds a lot more specific to what the story is about. I guess there isn't really a word that specific in English. It is always so interesting how they translate book and movie titles across languages.

[thelastmelon]

Hmmmm. Translations...

The book is originally called Der Vorleser. which is not just someone who reads (like The reader suggests), but someone who reads something to someone else. Out loud that is.

In Swedish it's called Högläsaren and it means the same thing, someone who reads out loud to someone else. :) I am getting my copy today. And I've had the movie on my "to watch"-list for a long time now, so maybe it's about time!

[margaine]

I got the book from the library today. It looks so short and readable! Not quite what I was expecting. Have some other stuff to get through before I actually start to read it though.

[Winifred]

I checked the movie out from Blockbuster. Need to get a library book copy again,too.

[thelastmelon]

I've finished reading it, and I am planning to watch the movie this month as well. :)

[jeremy]

I've watched the movie but haven't read the book. It's been on my shelf for a while though, but I'm always reading something else. Good to know this month's book is something I already have.

Edit: I completely forgot I suggested it. Exams getting to me, I think.

[neilgee]

Picked up a copy from the library last night and am now 70 pages in (about one third of the book length).

I'm abit taken aback by the amount of sex there is in it so far, not sure where it's all leading as I've never seen the film, but I like what Schlink says near the beginning as he begins describing the affair with Hanna. He says something to the effect of why should we lose the beauty of an affair in our remembrance because the affair becomes clouded by the bitterness of the affair's end? I'm sure there's some truth in that for most people and I thought it was an interesting take on how we view our memories.

[Winifred]

Well, I was very impressed with the movie - having read the book, I didn't see how to make a good movie out of it, but I think the movie stayed true to all the book's difficult themes and handled them well.

[jeremy]

The "memorable moments" of Hanna were captured quite well in the film too.

[margaine]

ugh . . . I still have about 100 pages to finish in The Famished Road before I start The Reader. Hopefully that will be today or the next day. I look forward to discussing it!

[neilgee]

I finished it yesterday, so without giving away any of the plot (can't remember whether Margaine said she'd seen the film or not) I'll only say that what he does for her when she's friendless, isolated, really moved me. I almost had a tear in my eye and I'm a bloke who doesn't cry easily!

Yet there's so many contradictions in this novel. Are you inclined to pity Hanna or condemn her? I think you can make a case for either side and that's always interesting. Can you blame the soldier taking orders for what happens in a war? It's a great idea, if all soldiers had to really question their own actions maybe there wouldn't be any wars...

[margaine]

I haven't seen the film yet neil. Don't worry, I'm skimming posts that look spoilerish till I've read more. :)

[Maryd.]

Hi all Neilgee, tipped me off about this forum and I joined yesterday. Is it to late to join in on this this book? :)

[margaine]

Hi all Neilgee, tipped me off about this forum and I joined yesterday. Is it to late to join in on this this book? :)

It is definitely not to late to join in! It isn't even half way through the month yet, and even if June were already over, the book club discussions remain open so you are always welcome to contribute to older threads.

[Maryd.]

Thank you Margarine... Firslty I have to read the book... I'll have to wait until Tuesday to go to the library as we have a public holiday tomorrow.... Thanks to the Queen.

[neilgee]

.. Thanks to the Queen.

Ha ha ha. I saw her once you know, I was cutting a dead branch off a tree at the side of the road in my old career as an arboriculturist (tree surgeon) when a cavalcade of police motorbikes sped passed and there in the middle of them was a limo with Queen Elizabeth sat in the back. I looked at her and felt instant pity, she reminded me of a goldfish in a bowl, and I just thought God, imagine a life where everyone stares at you everywhere you go! Aah, I couldn't stand it for five minutes. You can't even scratch your bum without it getting on the evening news.

She was isolated just like Hanna in the book, with both of them there's something that distances them from society.

Sorry, I know that's a desperate attempt to make a post that's nothing to do with the book seem relevant :) , but I just thought I'd share that with you.:)

[margaine]

I'm more than half way through the book. It is such a relief to me to be reading something short and small because I've been reading these 500-600 page library versions of books and I'm tired of reading things that are so huge - too heavy to hold while reading, not very portable, and just long to get through even if they are good (one is good, one wasn't so good).

I went out to pick up some food and while I was waiting for the food to be made in the restaurant, I got through a few chapters! :) If anyone is on the fence about whether or not to read the book, I'd say just go ahead and pick it up - even though the themes are heavy, it's very readable and pleasant in a way. You'll be done before you know it.



I'm abit taken aback by the amount of sex there is in it so far, not sure where it's all leading as I've never seen the film, but I like what Schlink says near the beginning as he begins describing the affair with Hanna. He says something to the effect of why should we lose the beauty of an affair in our remembrance because the affair becomes clouded by the bitterness of the affair's end? I'm sure there's some truth in that for most people and I thought it was an interesting take on how we view our memories.

That part struck me a lot as well. I've often thought about that - less with my own relationships and more with my parents'. What happens to the memories once the relationship/family group is no longer cohesive and ended on bad terms. To me, it sort-of taints the memory in a way because there's an addendum that's like "well, that didn't last."

I was warned by your post about the sex, so I wasn't so taken aback by it. It makes me think a lot of the John Irving novels I've read with younger man/older woman relationships. Just that dynamic - it used to be a theme that interested me as it's prevalent in all kinds of films and movies. Even though this context is very different and what goes on to be revealed in the book puts it in a very different category from things like The Last Picture Show or The Graduate there is still a lot of similarity.

[Maryd.]

Ha ha ha. I saw her once you know, I was cutting a dead branch off a tree at the side of the road in my old career as an arboriculturist (tree surgeon) when a cavalcade of police motorbikes sped passed and there in the middle of them was a limo with Queen Elizabeth sat in the back. I looked at her and felt instant pity, she reminded me of a goldfish in a bowl, and I just thought God, imagine a life where everyone stares at you everywhere you go! Aah, I couldn't stand it for five minutes. You can't even scratch your bum without it getting on the evening news.

She was isolated just like Hanna in the book, with both of them there's something that distances them from society.


Sorry, I know that's a desperate attempt to make a post that's nothing to do with the book seem relevant :) , but I just thought I'd share that with you.:)

Thanks for sharing Neil... Poor thing, it's one thing to be isolated, but being able to scratch her bum.... Nope, couldn't handle that... Hahahahah

[margaine]

done with the book! :) can't wait to discuss further.

[jeremy]

Maybe it was because the book was translated into English, but I thought it was quite awkward reading the strong and somewhat sensitive themes in such a direct and straightforward tone. This might be the way it was intended though.

I agree with the irony - I didn't know whether or not I wanted to root for Hanna. In the end, I gave her some compassion, likely due to the fact that her accused crime wasn't described in immense detail, and in a way that the reader doesn't know Hanna's exact actions (especially when she told that one lie to cover up her secret).

[margaine]

Yet there's so many contradictions in this novel. Are you inclined to pity Hanna or condemn her? I think you can make a case for either side and that's always interesting. Can you blame the soldier taking orders for what happens in a war? It's a great idea, if all soldiers had to really question their own actions maybe there wouldn't be any wars...

I don't really pity Hanna much at all. Not because she followed orders (which is an entirely complex moral dilemma that is too hard for me to think about) but because I didn't find her to be a very sympathetic character. I think in part because of the way the book is written - with a sort-of distance (not sure if that is because it is in translation or not, because it does work that way I think). I can see Hanna very clearly in the scenes in which she is described, but I can't connect to her at all.

I liked the tone of the novel, even if there is that distance as you point out Jeremy. I found the writing to be incredibly visual - I could really see everything and though I haven't seen the movie, I can very much imagine the book as a movie.

::spoiler warning below::







I don't sympathize with Hanna's motivation for keeping her illiteracy secret. I mean, it makes sense, but I'm kind-of angry at her for doing it, in the same way that the narrator initially feels when he figures it out and he wants to tell the judge that she is illiterate. I'm also angry at her for committing suicide, which I suppose isn't particularly fair, but I'm trying to explain that, though I'm not particularly interested in condemning Hanna for her war crimes (too hard for me, thank goodness I'm not a judge!), I don't really feel for her.

The most horrifying thing to me in the book was the revelation that Hanna had the weak female prisoners in the camp read to her, just as she has the narrator read to her. I just find that incredibly creepy, as it gives an extra strange dimension to the early relationship between Hanna and the narrator. Does she think about those prisoners when he reads to her? And as the narrator asks, was she doing a service to those prisoners in their last month of life, or was she just taking advantage of their situation? I suppose the narrator moves beyond the creepiness of it to some extent, because he chooses to send her tapes when she is in prison. And I kind of like that part. But still . . . I think especially because the reading is something Hanna as a guard specifically chose to do (there is no "just following orders" dilemma) it raises more interesting questions.

[neilgee]

The most horrifying thing to me in the book was the revelation that Hanna had the weak female prisoners in the camp read to her, just as she has the narrator read to her. I just find that incredibly creepy, as it gives an extra strange dimension to the early relationship between Hanna and the narrator. Does she think about those prisoners when he reads to her? And as the narrator asks, was she doing a service to those prisoners in their last month of life, or was she just taking advantage of their situation? I suppose the narrator moves beyond the creepiness of it to some extent, because he chooses to send her tapes when she is in prison. And I kind of like that part. But still . . . I think especially because the reading is something Hanna as a guard specifically chose to do (there is no "just following orders" dilemma) it raises more interesting questions.

Spoiler Warning

Yes, I was struck by Hanna's coldness too, as seen from the author's point of view of a boy in love with her, but he does say that her stay in his town was the longest she had stayed anywhere (7 years, I think it was) since the end of the war. That made me think of her as a Nazi war criminal, or at least to equate her with those kind of fugitives (there must have been alot of them in Germany after the war) and maybe that's what made her cold. The illiteracy is a mitigating factor in Hanna's alienation from love and society too, but I admit these are slim pickings as excuses go when you stand it against what she is accused of doing in the camps and with the fire in the church, although as Jeremy says it's not very clear what Hanna actually did or didn't do as regarding the fire because she cuts the trail short by admitting to everything in order to protect the secret of her illiteracy.

Then the tapes...that is such a beautiful gesture, and the fact that she finally learns to write by listening to the tapes and reading the books together.

This happens with love: I think she finally fell in love with him, but it came too late for him.

[Phantom Paragrapher]

I finished the book "The Reader" now Ill have to rent the movie. I thought the book was really well-done as it is set in the post-war and presented another side not normally publicised about the Holocaust and the relationship between Hanna and Jeremy and I agree with neilgee that the reason she was cold hearted was due to her time with the Nazi's . I loved how no matter what happened Jeremy in a way never forgot her and during prison re-ignited the friendship during tapes etc. I also think that eventually Hanna did fall in love with jeremy but it was too late for a second chance. I thought that maybe Jeremy would have passed away with his Hepatitis so it was interesting to see how the story panned out.
In the back of the book I got from the Library it has a list of suggested further reading that Ill share with you all :
Crime and Punishment - Dostoevsky
War Story- Gwen Edelman
Tin Drum - Gunter Grass
Stones from the River - Ursula Hegi
Schindler's List - Thomas Keneally
The Twins - Tessa De Loo
Fugitive Pieces - Anne Michaels
Dark Room - Rachel Seiffert
Sophies Choice - William Styron
Everything is Illuminated - Jonathon Safran Foer

[Winifred]

I kept wondering why Schlink would set the book up in such a manner - the seduction of a teenage boy by an older woman. Then, it occurred to me that it echoed Hitler and Germany: Germany was sick at heart from its loss in WWI, in search of glory - Hitler's seductive invitation to racial superiority is mighty like Hanna's seductive allure to an adolescent boy (who, then, feels superior to his fellow schoolmates - he is comfortable with girls, whereas, most of his schoolmates are still stymied). Also, Hanna's secret illiteracy echoes Hitler's Jewish heritage - secrets to be kept at all costs.

I agree that the idea of making the weakest girls read to her was creepy - but even creepier were the other guards, who apparently did nothing at all to alleviate anyone, and then were happy to blame Hanna for everything.

To me, he strongest message, even beyond the redemption provided by the Boy's tapes, was how horrible apathy can be: to ignore the screams of the women in the church, because the guards were "following orders," and "keeping order" is just horrifying, precisely because it is such a simulataneously repulsive and recognizable behavior. Talk about a searing image of the entire Holocaust, or for that matter, any gross or horrible injustice!